A Second Reply to Christian Apologist on The Metaphysical

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Warren Kincaid
Commenter

What would you say about people who “felt good” about handing over Jews to Nazi’s?

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

I think a study of history and the future will reveal whether we’ve “evolved” away from “brute” human attributes into something higher. Actually… I think that as we become more “secular” from this point things will get worse. We’re just keeping a lid on it. I’m not discounting “evolution” but I think you carry it to far. I don’t think we have that kind of time left to evolve to the level of self preservation needed on a large scale. It’s easier to destroy than to build.

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

Maybe we just can’t rely on “feelings” to give us a safe foundation for decisions (obviously it can’t). Secondly…. I don’t think evolution has proven to be good theory when it comes to advancements in Ethics or “feelings”. We build our civility on safer rules of conduct, not on elapsed time. I think a better understanding of the Bible has done more to advance civility, growth and care in “modern” Western culture than evolution has proven out. I think that bares a little consideration.

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

Within Atheism, what makes sincerity better than a lie? What if sincerity injures people but the lie saves them from pain? What if generosity on your part leads to egoism on the part of another? What if courage gets you killed and cowardice saves you (and others)? Atheism as a tenet has no universal unifying basis for these things. Nor has it the cure to fix them. Criticism of Christianity does not make Atheism right. It must be able to stand on its own merit with answers in the areas of human dilemma’s in order to be of any value. Where do the answers lie in the realm of the Atheist? Pure intentions and actions? How pure? Can you point to someone who always does that? Or even ever does that.

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

That’s alot of ground to cover. The first… If Atheism is the filter you use to see the world then Atheism is both something you are, and what you do. It’s a human-centric view of life. We do things based on what we are. Everyone carries his (or her) own philosophy. “Are” and “Do” are linked. Atheists are not moraly bankrupt I’ll agree and there is plenty of evidence out there. But they are adrift in the sea of morals. There is no unifying factor. And extreme cases of morals are the most glaring (life or death for instance). The bridge you offer must be a two-way street. If the flaws in “christianity” are the reason you won’t cross it and find out what is independently there, then the deficiencies in Atheism can be used as well. Atheism is more than just “not believing” in something. It crafts the path you’ll follow when you have to make big decisions (and maybe even some small ones). If Atheists are really interested in finding the answers they claim to be open to, they’ll have to move their questions into other catagories and be receptive to the answers. I apreciate your outlook though.

Brian Robson
Commenter

Let me clarify that being an atheist is something you are not what you do. Of course Atheism has no central tenet or unifying basis for these things but it doesn’t mean atheist are morally bankrupt, it just is the default position that atheist take on the premise there is no good reason for believing in God or any gods. There a good and bad among everybody on the planet believers and non believers alike Its really that simple. The burden proof lies with claimant, all atheist do is ask if any of it stacks up. Being God fearing doesn’t actually make you a better person research has shown that. Why must atheism stand on it own merits with answers in areas human dilemma That is nonsense..Atheism Is not based on faith or a belief system unlike religion its not on a quest to change banish religion.It about building bridges. Its seems not all that Christians love to dislike atheist, based on what because we don’t believe there is a god especially a loving one or simply because there no reasonable or logical or rational reason to believe in one because its written in a book. Its in book so what ? Noddy Went to Toy Town in book I owned but did Noddy really exist just because it in a bool ? Most atheist care about what is true if there is no reason to believe based on lack of evidence then why should we believe something is true just base on faith which is indistinguishable with gullibility Christianity is not really a moral ideology when you search deeper. Christianity has had two thousand years to fix things and has it ?? What you call criticism I call asking questions at to prove any the what seem glaringly made up stuff is actually true so if a Christian believes more so in what he believes to be true rather than actually knowing it is well that is just wanting for answers which is essentially what atheism is about you say all the religious belief is true all we ask how do you know and can you prove it otherwise you are just deluding yourself and may as well be telling lies if there is no basis that is demonstrable for you belief.

Robert Giroux
Commenter

There is no compelling evidence pointing to a deliberate creation of the universe by a being with intent. There is no compelling evidence that such a being should be a single entity. There is no compelling evidence that such a being should be immortal or omnipotent. There is no compelling evidence for such a being still being alive. There is no compelling evidence for such a being having a moral interest in humanity. All of these are mere assumptions/arguments made from incredulity and ignorance …

It is possible that a supernatural being exists which does not intervene, and for which there is no evidence. But in the absence of evidence, there is no reason to think the hypothesis is true, and furthermore, in the absence of evidence, all your ideas as to the thoughts and wishes of this non-intervening entity are inventions – simply because you don’t have the evidence.

We don’t need to believe in gods to think that sincerity is better than lie, that generosity is better than egoism, that courage is better than cowardice, that gentleness and compassion is better than violence and cruelty, that love is better than hate!
True morality should be based on intentions and actions… not beliefs and dogmas. The goal is to allow people to live with better harmony in society. We don’t need divinities or priests to achieve that. Reflexion and commun sense should be enough.
We don’t know what, if anything caused the Big Bang, but we can be pretty sure it wasn’t a loving god. Why? Eyeworms, Childhood leukaemia and natural disasters. Whatever your excuse, inflicting pain, killing innocent children or hundred thousand people at a pop is pretty conclusively evil.

Alan Couvillion
Commenter

You didn’t answer the question, reason is good an adaptable means given by God. Science is a good way of determining the best absolute possibble but it is not the only way. Scientism assumes that all factors are available to them, but there not. God is not apart of the creation he is the sole reason and only way anyone or thing exists in creation. Science only can claim to go back to a point, but then it has to start speculating forming a faith of a sort since it can not create anything from nothing.

Robert Giroux
Commenter

There are as many religions as there are definitions of God(s).
You can define something without ever having seen it. You can’t describe it though. A description is a report of what something has been observed to be like. We know what an electron is like – lots and lots of observations of electrons have been carried out.
But there are no descriptions of God,because
nobody has ever seen God.
There is merely definitions of what people think God ought to be.
And because religion has been dealing with competing definitions rather than making observations that enable them to move on to descriptions of God, religions have split and split again, because nobody’s definition can be decisively contradicted by facts, and having means of resolving disagreements.
Contrast this with science. Scientists agree that all their theories are based on observation, that they are dealing with descriptions of what is, rather than definitions of what ought to be. Any scientific dispute can ultimately be resolved by making the observations necessary to distinguish between competing theories.
As a result, there is just science. there is not Anglican science, Catholic science, Orthodox science, Sunni science, Shia science, Sufi science, Hindu science and Buddhist science. Just science.

Alan Couvillion
Commenter

Can you prove science is irrefutable?

Chris Tatler
Commenter

Warren Kincaid “faith” HAS two meanings, try edumatcating yourself.

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

The Humanist Codex You have faith in the predictability of the results of your coin flipping. You may not be absolutely certain of the results, but you carry a level of confidence brought on by an aptitude for a system only humans seem to possess. You claim that science is a system of thought. So is atheism + science. You view your world through the filter of what you believe to be true. Everyone does (how does that happen, anyway?). Science does not complete the picture. Neither does atheism. There is a misconception that science is atheistic in its foundation. But science can’t answer why it can do what it does. And it alone can’t answer why we even know the difference, or put life in its proper perspective. As always… you try to force the word “faith” out of your world view system. But at the same time you display the meaning of the word through your stated beliefs. We don’t have the luxury of changing the meaning of words to fit our agenda.

Robert Giroux
Commenter

People are not born with religious belief. It has to be learned or imposed at an early age. Many atheists become so as a result of examining, questioning, and ultimately rejecting the religious belief that they were taught. ( I stopped believing in God the day I stopped believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny).
Others, not brought up in a ‘faith’ context are simply ‘non-believers’. (Like my kids who have not been baptised nor received a religious education. Technically, they are atheists, but probably they would not use the term, since the whole matter of belief or non-belief is a non-issue for them. I personally prefer the term ‘non-believer’ because ‘atheist’ has become a term of abuse for some people and too easily thrown around. Most non-believers quietly go about their lives, minding their own business, and obeying the rules.

The vast majority of personal religious beliefs can be accurately predicted based solely on the beliefs of one’s parents or the culture one is raised in…Religious people should ask themselves’Are my religious beliefs based on rationality and evidence, or on indoctrination?’
Atheism is only part of who we are, and a very small part. As far as I’m concerned, it definitively do not define who I am… I try to treat people with kindness because I want to create more happiness where I can and I want to be treated the same; it’s as simple as that!

Robert Giroux
Commenter

Robert Peck ~ I once read that if children were born with a fully developped conscience, there would never have been a need for God…
As soon as his mind is awakened, a child naturally possesses the faculty and taste for fantasizing . This is why myths, as a way to stimulate our imagination (and slip a few essentials truths under the cover of entertainment) have always been so popular.
BTW, What is hard-wired into people is a tendency to look for patterns and narratives, and to infer ‘agency’ behind events.
This leads to anthropomorphic projections.
Gods are invented as agents behind natural phenomena.
They vary greatly, historically and across different cultures.
The god of our three monotheist religions is by no means unique or special.
An infant is neither moral or immoral. He is amoral!
A baby is a being of pulsions, desires and needs…
He will learn moral judgement and a code of conduct in society
from his parents, the school and his parents’ religion/church.
Morality is the rule of the tribe you live in … a collection of social values that promote cohesion in groups of humans. Humans are complex animals. Humans rely on one another to produce food, protect their youngs (our children go through 4 years of infancy), and take care of the old. Being “good” to each other helps us survive. That’s pretty much all the morality and parental duty we need…
We don’t need a god for that.

Chris Tatler
Commenter

Robert Peck then how come you have to indoctrinate them as children, so they know which false fake “g0d” is “real” LOL LOL LOL.

Robert Peck
Commenter

people are born with an innate sense of another supreme being. look around the world at primitive cultures. it’s what we do with it that leads to atheism, agnosticism or belief.

Terry Gilborson
Commenter

Everyone has a faith its impossible not to have some form of faith, if you choose to believe in nothing ie atheistism that is your faith. I challenge you to give some evidence of no God not possible. Where as the evidence of a creator God is all around you, just look outside or in a mirror. You are too amazing and complex to have just happened, and do you know if you believe it or not he loves each of us with a love far beyond we could ever imagine.

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

The Humanist Codex I think you have been honest, but not complete and unable or unwilling to answer this one. Atheism is a system based on what you chose to believe or disbelieve. It runs deeper than just a denial that there is a “God” or not per-se. You must make decisions based on your own value system (everyone must if they’re alive). If there is a God who is actually there (biblically speaking) and you chose to leave that out of your life-equation your view will be skewed, and your basis for truth in all areas will reflect that deficiency. The most evident is in the area of morals, but it also affects all of life (science included). Put another way….. You don’t exhibit faith in something that you believe isn’t there, I understand that. But you do exercise faith in the results of your thinking built upon your belief system. You act… and those actions show where your faith is. You have chosen your own instinct and reason as the basis of your faith. You have built the “Humanist Codex”. You wear your faith on your sleeve. I’m still waiting for you to admit to the dual definition of the word “Faith”. So far, you have avoided it and I simply let it drop. But it seems to have popped up again here. Since God is out of your life equation…… again, what is your assessment of abortion? And how did you arrive at that point? Do you have any faith that your opinion is correct? And if you don’t have faith in your opinion on the topic, will you mind if I don’t have any faith in your opinion as well? Or are you still thinking about it?

Robert Giroux
Commenter

OK! Just for the sake of discussion and since nobody can prove with 100% certitude that gods exist (or not!), Let’s say that atheism is a belief (faith) in the non-existence of something!! It still has no dogma, no doctrines, no sacred books, no symbols, no special food, clothes or rituals.
All an atheist should say is: “In the absence of any compelling evidence for the existence of any gods, I shall act and choose my ethics as if none exist, until and unless that situation changes.”
Those atheists who proclaim that gods don’t exist are contradicting themselves: they are doing an act of faith… a negative one but faith nevertheless…
Bottom line is: There is no compelling evidence pointing to a deliberate creation of the universe by a being with intent. There is no compelling evidence that such a being should be a single entity. There is no compelling evidence that such a being should be immortal or omnipotent. There is no compelling evidence for such a being still being alive. There is no compelling evidence for such a being having a moral interest in humanity.
All of these assumptions come from folklore or from a lack of imagination in dreaming up alternatives. Any competent sci-fi author could knock off half a dozen alternative scenarios over lunch.
We don’t know what, if anything caused the Big Bang, but we can be pretty sure it wasn’t a loving god. Why? Eyeworms, Childhood leukaemia and natural disasters. Whatever your excuse, inflicting pain, killing innocent children or hundred thousand people at a pop is pretty conclusively evil.

Robert Giroux
Commenter

The problem is that there are two definitions of “faith”:
faith Noun /fāTH/
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
I have a little of the first, and absolutely none of the second.
Which definition are you using here?
My faith is in humanity… Love, respect, tolerance…
Friendship, emancipation…

Barry Morris
Commenter

I don’t have the faith to believe that something can come from nothing.

Andrew Henderson
Commenter

You dont need faith…you dont even need to know it as fact…because there is no evidence but that would go for religion even more….

Brian Robson
Commenter
Andrew Henderson
Commenter

Our curiosity and questioning doesn’t make us special we can travel to the moon and write music but a blue whale or a earwig are not concerned…what have we really done that makes us special….even nuclear power only assists how we eat while watching TV…Cancer research however incredible only stops the inevitable for a while…we might wonder at the stars but they don’t wonder at us….

Andrew Henderson
Commenter

Science can not give all the answers..but that does not then give any validity to a supreme creator….you would then need science to prove there was a creator …but it carnt…

Andrew Henderson
Commenter

How do we stand special against other animals …we can talk and swim but not as good as as dolphin.. again what you consider a special trait …really is not… the only thing special about us is that we posses a unhealthy notion that we are of a higher order than otjer animals …give a example that makes us more special ….?

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

So what you are saying now is that there is an order to what would be considered “special”? All I’m saying is that it’s obvious that the human race stands apart from the rest for specific reasons. Science can’t answer those reasons adequately.

Andrew Henderson
Commenter

Youre talking in a humanistic way …whats less special than our elephant cousins love of figs than ours …you carnt say that with any authority because you are not a elephant..I’m not saying what you find special is less or more than mine …what i am saying is that we are as special as elephants and as special as grass but not as special as trees or fungi….without any of the last two species we would not exsist…

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

But I say we are special as a species. Because we are able to discern between what is special and what is not (among many other things). It’s a matter of value. That’s something your mammal elephants aren’t taking into account when they walk their miles. As humans we value (think special) about things we may not even like (ask your wife again for clarification, but the word honor and justice come to mind). Also…. Why would your oppinion on this be any more or less special than mine? You are actually aiming for less. I also have the added testimony that humans are special in the grand scope of creation. It’s not just me who says so. And the observable world is proof. As well… you are special to see and understand the differance. And that brand of special is called “potential”.

Andrew Henderson
Commenter

Most mammals…a elephant herd will walk for days just to eat certain food even when food is in abundance just because they enjoy a certain fruit …as i said its not that we find things special but as a species we are not….

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

The word “special” is a relative term. What is not special to you may be very special in the grand scheme of things (ask your wife). That we are even able to measure special from mundane is special in itself. What other species can do that?

Warren Kincaid
Commenter

1) “Humans have a natural desire to satisfy their curiosity and seek purpose and answer the “why” questions of life.” So where did this “natural desire” spring from? Why does the human race seem to be the only species to have it? Science has its place. But obviously, it’s not universal in its scope if you use valid words like “desire”, “purpose” and “curiosity”.

Pat Mc Ginley
Commenter

They get away with all of these absurd claims because they don’t need to back them up with evidence.

Pat Mc Ginley
Commenter

Brian Robson The main reason these Bible-based religions still prosper is the Bible’s very real attributes for its many powerful, wealthy vested interests i.e. mega cash-cow and powerful tool of control.

Brian Robson
Commenter

The old argument we have faith. Faith is nothing its just gullibility and believing in something ether because you are afraid to question it or you like it. and have no evidence to support it.. Faith is not a pathway to anything, its nothing. but clinging on to something that could either be wrong right. but know way of knowing.

Shaun Philip Hutchings
Commenter

Why did life happen? Because it was possible and that which can happen can happen. There is no need for a reason as reality is not reasonable. Only a thing with needs would have a reason to do anything. Reasons didn’t come along until after life was brought into existence.

Shaun Philip Hutchings
Commenter

No in the infinite space of the imagination you can have an infinite number of numbers and as many gods as you like. That’s where the gods exist.

Ken Croft
Commenter

With all those Gods from all these religions isn’t it getting a little crowded up there?

Steve Wilson
Commenter

Well. Science. Of course it has allowed good things to happen. It just can’t answer all questions…it is a continually learning and continually adjusting system..it rarely gets to ultimates, just betters (is an egg good to eat or not? Science’s answer totally depends on when the question was asked…it’s like that with most things.

Given its failure percentage, science is arguably one of the least successful field in human history, as well as most successful. And actually it’s an application of method more than a field per se.
Many fields use it, along with math. Not a bad thing, often amazing, but incomplete, and many of its practitioners and followers have far too much hubris for their own, or anyone else’s good.

As for C.S. Lewis and his thoughts on risk…Yes, God is omniscient, but omniscience doesn’t collide with coerce. A parent might well caution a child about not playing in the road…God expands that, Lewis likens it to watching time from outside, like looking at a ruler. We can see the whole thing, could see everything on it…but would not by necessity be making things on it do..

The risk, of course, is letting people play out their agency. The risk is for the people doing so. Not the person watching the ruler.

Steve Wilson
Commenter

Hmmm, was an experiment. The test failed. Semantics. smile

Jim Atherton
Commenter

Steve Wilson the light bulbs failed, but the experiment worked.
An experiment is only ever an attempt to measure your ability to achieve a goal.
An experiment where the end result works is still a failure if your method does not effectively capture the reasons for success, and conversely an experiment that does not achieve the desired result is a success if it provides insight into the reasons that the attempt was unsuccessful…

Steve Wilson
Commenter

Experiments provide knowledge. But they do fail. Hmmm. An experiment is a testable idea. It does show what happens. But it is predicated on an idea, or hypothesis about how a thing works. Edison’s light bulbs that didn’t work, to take an old tale, didn’t work. They failed. They provided insight, they marked things off a list, but they failed. The important thing in his story is that he kept looking. Hubris never admits failure. Scientism.

Shaun Philip Hutchings
Commenter

Experiments never ‘fail’. Experiments show what happens. If you are trying to achieve something that isn’t possible you are not trying to do a scientific experiment, you are trying to practice magic.

God is NOT good.
Commenter
God is NOT good.
Commenter

You can’t fix stupid honey

God is NOT good.
Commenter

Bitch didn’t even answer half your questions.

God is NOT good.
Commenter
Chris Cain
Commenter

If I looked like Patton Oswalt I wouldn’t believe in God either.

Shaun Philip Hutchings
Commenter

The meaning of life is easy. It’s a piece of cake.

Shaun Philip Hutchings
Commenter

That is brilliant.