Irreducible Complexity Disproves Evolution

This argument is commonly presented as a theistic argument--that is to say an argument for the existence of “God”. However it’s a deistic argument. Even if it were valid (and it's not), it would only evidence a creator or higher power. It does serve as evidence of Jesus, God, Yahweh, Hanuman, Zeus, Hera, Osiris, Quatzequatel, or any other theistic deity, or any claim made in any holy book. If it is being pressed into such service, it has already failed.

Can God make a universe capable of self-organization? If so, then there is no way
to make the case that complexity reflects direct design by a tinkering god, as opposed
to the result of a natural process in a universe made by an extremely clever God. If
not, then why do you posit a god that is so limited?
~James F. McGrath

The argument is that Irreducible Complexity disproves the “theory” of evolution, and is a proof for an Intelligent Designer (God).

Irreducible Complexity, first coined in Michael Behe’s book “Darwin’s Black Box”, is the idea that some things are so complex, with so many complex parts, that it could not have evolved. If any one part were missing, the whole thing wouldn’t work. Since it wouldn’t function without all the parts (and therefore wouldn’t have evolved), and the parts couldn’t have co-evolved together for a common purpose that didn’t exist prior to them, that it proves Intelligent Design (and to some, disproves Evolution). “An irreducibly complex system,” he wrote, “cannot be produced directly… by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.

The problems with this are as follows:

  1. This is a hypothesis. A hypothesis is not proof.
  2. This relies on purported “common sense”, which is not permissible in scientific claims. It’s common sense that planets can’t change their orbits, yet Mars does (in “obvious” violation of physics), ergo God exists, is just one example of thousands of similar, failed, common sense arguments.
  3. This argument is a “God of the Gaps” argument. God of the Gaps is the single most employed argument in the history of human discourse, with as many as a billion unique iterations of it. It has never, not once, ever worked, and is also the single most refuted argument in human history (though it will no doubt continue to be deployed as long as we live).
  4. This is a deistic argument, not a theistic one. Therefore, even were it granted, it would constitute no evidence for theistic claims, like the existence of Vishnu, Zeus, Odin or God.

Each of these are alone are sufficient to dismiss Irreducible Complexity as any evidence for any theistic claim (such as evidence of God). Each of these, except (IV), are sufficient alone to completely discredit this argument as evidence, let alone “proof”, either supporting intelligent design or undermining evolution.

Note, first, that this is a hypothesis. A hypothesis is not a law, it’s not a theory, and doesn’t count as evidence against either. This makes it pseudo-science, in that people who use the argument try to couch it in scientific terminology to lend it credibility, but don’t apply it scientifically. For this to be “proof” against evolution, this hypothesis would need to follow the remaining steps of the scientific method to develop supporting evidence. None of that has been done (indeed this “hypothesis” may well violate the methods prohibitionist against fallibility). Supporters may say “Well, it’s obvious that you can’t co-evolve systems into a complex organ like the eye”, but it was once also “obvious” that the world was flat and that Mars can’t go backwards. “Obvious” is a banned word in science, and with good reason.

Indeed, already the mechanisms of many “irreducibly complex” systems are being discovered.

This is part of the problem with “Common Sense” arguments, and what makes them unscientific–they don’t look for possible alternatives. For example when Intelligent Design proponents argue that life requires four fully functioning systems (a means to absorb energy, to use energy, dispose of waste, and replicate) to exist, and therefore evolution is false because all four must have been in place first, they are dismissing reasonable alternatives (life might not always have had those requirements, perhaps small molecules had one or two of these systems and developed into larger complex systems and eventually became life (RNA has now been shown to be able to do this on it’s own. It’s not alive, and can self replicate, and develop crude methods for all of these functions, and it’s the basis of all life on this planet). “Common sense” is a ploy to suppress investigation into alternate theories, and is not now, nor has it ever been, evidence. Period.).

Once again, as nearly every theistic argument, Irreducible Complexity relies on scientific ignorance to prove god. Science can’t explain how multiple systems co-evolved, or how complex systems would work without one piece, it clearly, obviously can’t be done, so that proves God (or an intelligent designer). This is a God of the Gaps argument, this kind of argument is the single most employed argument in the history of human discourse, and it’s been wiped out every single time. It’s success rate in the last 6,000 years is zero.

Now that doesn’t give theists pause in deploying it. When the spin of Venus was impossible (a violation of the law of angular momentum) it proved God. When the orbit of Mars was impossibly changed direction mid-flight, it proved God. Theists can’t help themselves claiming that something we don’t understand proves god. But our ignorance, in an apparently finite world, isn’t proof of anything it’s not. And it’s been trumpeted as that, and I say this without hyperbole, a billion times. And it’s always wrong (except this time. This time it’s right!).

Aside from this being a God of the Gaps argument, and therefore completely invalid and unreliable, it’s also a deistic argument, not a theistic one. I do not contest deism. I’m an atheist, I contest Theism, and Irreducible complexity is a deistic argument for an intelligent designer–a higher power–which could just as easily be Zeus or Quetzalcoatl or something we’ve never thought of. None of this is not even suggestive of Theistic beliefs like the God of Abraham, or that Jesus was the son of God.

And all of that out of the way, science is already making significant strides in destroying irreducible complexity arguments. We know how non-living, self replicating DNA could acquire the other necessary systems to sustain life. Many parts of the steps have been reproduced. There are working hypotheses, and we’re showing that it is indeed (big surprise) possible for processes like this to develop.

There is no evidence that it can’t be done–we’ve theoretical ideas, they’re getting worked out, and we’re showing at least one way to do it.

Which is an expression of the exact problem with God of the Gaps arguments. Our ignorance, that something seems impossible, does not prove anything other than our own ignorance. Even if irreducible complexity wasn’t already falling to demonstrations of how to reduce these systems, it was never, ever, under any circumstances, proof of a higher power. It was proof we have more to learn, and we always will. And since our ignorance seems to somehow be proof of god, we’ll always have an argument of the gaps.

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Doreen Fenwick
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Thanks Nev Richards.This is what is meant by my saying Test each thing out for ones self dont take as true just because someone says its true.This why I always back up what I say with Scripture because I Trust God, and what Ive learnt from questioning Scientists etc; xx.

Doreen Fenwick
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Atheist, Really Stupid Questions deserve Stupid answers really, and dont deserve creditable replies. BUT I AIM TO PLEASE !!!!!xx.

Karfvgen Eric
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Diferent Universes Diferent god ???

Nev Richards
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Scientists who seek the truth find it. Here’s just a few. Information from UNLOCKING THE MYSTERY OF LIFE DVD Expresses the scientific views of: Dr Dean H Kenyon Evolutionary Biologist, one of Leading Chemical Evolutionists Dr Michael J Behe Biochemist Dr Steven C Meyer, philosopher of Science Professor Phillip E Johnson Dr Paul A Nelson Professor of biology William Dembski, mathematician Baylon Uni., Scott Minniah, Molecular Biologist, Uni of Idaho and others who are specialists in various fields In 1969 Dr Dean Kenyon published , “Biochemical Predestination”. It was a best selling book influencing many scientists. It claimed the different complex protiens essential for life had self assembled. (30,000. of them) with the 20 different animo acids to begin life. But 5 years later he began to doubt his own theory. How could first protiens assemble without instructions?(a recipe) Where did the genetic assembly instructions come from? The complex assembly chain is classified to A, C, G, T each standing for complex arrangements. By the end of the 70’s he realised animo acids do not have the ability to organise themselves into any orderly sequence and that there was a need for genetic information . So what was the source of biological information in DNA.? Natural selection could not have functioned before the existance of DNA. So it cannot explain the origen of DNA so life couldn’t start by natural… Read more »

Sed Adler
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Laughable. Since we don’t have every single fossil since man evolved into existence, it must mean a god intervened. Occam’s razor folks.

Steve Ray Webb
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What we have is a record of fossils that now exceeds a million. That is not an exaggeration. The point of the fossil record is that species mostly appear out of ‘thin air’ with no transitional forms. As more species are continually discovered, this problem has grown worse in terms of finding transitional forms. If you are keeping up to date with the evolutio news, there is a lot of rumbling by the scientists (of which I am one). Darwinism is on life support and everyone is scrambling to find ways to keep it alive.

Sed Adler
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Steve Ray Webb Are you a paleontologist?

Sed Adler
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Just like climatology, there are going to be some that don’t agree but the vast majority of paleontologists agree that Darwinism is easily viable and verifiable with the fossils we have.

The big splash that xians are making about that new book by Stephen Meye is “…based on a 1980s perspective… According to paleontologist Charles Marshall, biologists no longer believe that building the diverse forms of Cambrian animals would require evolving new genes (or, at least, many new genes)..”

Denis Martel
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I buy that! There are many ways of perceiving reality, while some may seem to contradict it may only be semantix or point of view! There were two men at a coffee shop looking at a coffee cup. They argued for hours about which side of the cup the handle was on. The left side or the right side. Both convinced the other was wrong!

Dave Glostein
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We all need something to believe in and we don’t want to believe that the lifespan of a person is meaningless. We need to feel connected to the people we love even after they pass away. Since our consciousness only reveals a small percentage of reality, we have no way to tell what is beyond us. Our beliefs make us who we are and provide us with our morality!

Steve Ray Webb
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But why should be need something to believe in? Why would random evolution give us thoughts that are meaningless and hopeless? I submit that we have these thoughts and feelings because they are trying to lead us to something real and substantial – God. He is there for us to find him but he is not going to impose himself on us. We need to humbly come to him.

Dave Glostein
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Steve Ray Webb : I personally choose to believe there is a god. I may not believe that he created the universe, and it is not impossible to believe he is a creation of man. Who knows, the human race may have greater abilities then we can experience in our own reality. Could the human race have created such a being from their own powers of their minds? Who’s to say that what we can’t sense with our own senses does not exist.

Dave Glostein
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You could take it a step further and say an intelligence being(s) existed that triggered the big gang. Since everything is made up of energy, it could be a logical conclusion.

Denis Martel
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So long as god is thought of as an anthropomorphic consciousness separate from the world, an old man with a beard sitting on a cloud. Then It will never be understood!

Steve Ray Webb
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I’m not aware of any Christians who think of God as having a beard and sitting on a cloud. We can know some things about God because he has revealed them to us but there is no way for us to have comprehensive knowledge of him. In fact, a god we could fully understand would not be a god at all, or certainly not the god who created the universe.. We do know how God feels and thinks about us humans, and what he expects of us, through Jesus Christ, and that is going to have to be sufficient for this lifetime.

Denis Martel
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you are speaking to the choir! I fully agry with what you said! But I have met many Christians, and other believers of monotheistic religions who believe in an anthropomorphic god! Anthropomorphism is humanities collective ego making a god in our own image! Just look at the ceiling of the sistine chapel. God knows how often e have wanted to play God often enough!

Bruce Underhill
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Denis Martel ‘We can know some things about God because he has revealed them to us”? Did I miss it? When did that happen?

Denis Martel
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I never said that nor do I think it. Please in the future if you wish to critque what I said make sure I said it and don’t put words in my mouth! Do you want to really know what I think about It? If you say you don’t know then you don’t know. If you say you know you still don’t know! Also, about God’s existence. It exists, but does not exist, but does not not exist. The begining of wisdom starts with the statement “I don’t know”. So, chew on that.

Steve Ray Webb
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Bruce, it happened in the Bible. I recommend you start by reading the book of John in the New Testament. Shouldn’t take more than a couple hours to read. Hit me up after that.

Steve Ray Webb
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Denis Martel, all language, except words directly dealing with sense, is metaphoric. C.S. Lewis does a good job of explaining this in his book Mere Christianity. The Bible uses language that helps us try to picture God and picture heaven with images we can understand, but these images are not reality. They are just vehicles that help our comprehension. God is not really our father and Jesus is not really his son in the way that we normally understand these terms. They are just picture words that aid in communication. Physics and chemistry books are chock full of such metaphorical language to the point they are practically poetry books (I am a retired scientist). There is nothing at all wrong with communicating in this fashion; in fact it is necessary. But we have to keep in mind that our words are just are best attempt at grasping reality behind those words.

Denis Martel
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Absolutely! Words communicate the limitations of the brain. The anthropomorphisation of God caused much of the problem! When Jesus called God our father he was refering to the primal force that initiated the existence of what our brain sees as reality.

Denis Martel
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Steve Ray Webb I forgot to mention C.S. Lewis is one of my favourite authors and I read vertualy all of his books!

Gerald Lloyd
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I’m always amazed at this thought about lack of evidence for God. No one has seen the wind but we know it IS there because we see the evidence of the wind, what we have given the name ‘wind’. No one has seen love but we see its evidence. No one has seen God but we see the evidence all around. I believe because of 1) the awesomeness of nature; 2) the Bible (preservation, prophecies, etc.); 3) my own experiences; 4) the experiences of others; and 5) the fact that my questions of life are all answered.

Denis Martel
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This is called anecdotal evidence as opposed to hard evidence. I think both are valid ways of discerning existence. Even physics admits that there are aspects of reality that it can not study, prove or disprove due to the paradoxical nature and other factors of these aspects. Physics does not have the tools to do so. But, physics never says these aspects are not real! They are the domain of philosophy. So, keep on keeping on!

Steve Ray Webb
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So what evidence do you need? What would it take for you to believe in God?

Denis Martel
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To answere that I need to know what you mean by God.

Stephen Best
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Hi Doreen

Pat Mc Ginley
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sorry..due to some humans migrating from Africa – the home of human evolution – having mated with Neanderthals. Backed up by the fact that Africans whose ancestors never left Africa have no Neanderthal DNA.

Pat Mc Ginley
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We’re here because of the physics. The physics aren’t here because of us. But ,the best proof of evolution is the DNA. The fact that most people have some Neanderthal DNA due to some e

Mike Robinson
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Actually for me the complexities and interdependence of the natural world is evidence against intelligent design and in favor of evolution. It is too complex to have been designed, these systems had to evolve over time to their current state and will continue to evolve. God is the simple answer to complex questions that simple people want. Religious people like everything to be black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, tell me what to think. But the universe is far too complex for their simple solutions.

Steve Ray Webb
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Why do you think that long periods of time creates complexity? Especially why do you think long periods of time with nothing but random forces at work, would develop something more complex than an intelligent mind? LOL.Unbelievable. You are not seeking to know God. You are seeking to avoid him.

Mike Robinson
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Where did God come from? How is it that you can accept that some all powerful being either appeared from nothing or always existed but can’t accept that our universe and life on our planet evolved over time to its current state.
If you want me to seek to know God, which god should I get to know? There are many to choose from. What make you think you have the right one and the other religions have it wrong.

Steve Ray Webb
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Where did God come from? Where did matter come from? Something obviously existed in the beginning. Why do you assume it was not God? As for choosing which God’s to follow, there are a lot of good books on the comparison of religions. Do you expect book length subjects to be reviewed on Facebook? You are just trying to hide behind a facade of unbelief. As for books, I recommend you start with Christian philosopher Francis Schaeffer’s, The God Who is There followed by He is There and He is Not Silent.

Bruce Underhill
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Steve Ray Webb Oh, it is easy to avoid god. What is difficult to avoid are delusional people who actually believe that there is a god. You might say that would be easy if you simply were to mind your own business you atheists, and that too would be easy if religious types kept it inside the church and synagogue instead of trying to inject their nonsense into government and public policy.

John Brain
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There is no creator god that brought energy into existence from nonexistence, and there is no destroyer god that can utterly destroy energy into a state of nonexistence. Energy is eternal. There is no beginning and no end, only continual change in the endless loop of time. Before our current universe existed the energy that makes it up formed another earlier universe that existed before the event some call the big bang. It is likely that we may be in for another big crunch, or a series of them. And all with the same existent energy we have now, and have always had – in other forms.

Steve Ray Webb
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The famous astronomer Fred Hoyle (who coined the term big bang) was not a religious man, but when he started looking at all the ‘coincidences’ that were needed for life to form from the random motion of inorganic molecules, he likened it to “the creation of a fully and accurately assembled 747 jetliner due to a tornado blowing through a junkyard.” The statistical odds of all the right chemicals doing their job, maintaining their stability, and then being able to reproduce themselves in order to create life is staggering no matter how you examine it. Scientists have not been able to do this under the best of laboratory conditions let alone anything that resembled primordial earth. Anyone who does not believe in God has to at least accept the possibility he exists or they are not being honest with themselves.

Mike Robinson
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Where did god come from? Which god created the universe because there are many different gods people believe in.

Steve Ray Webb
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There was obviously something there at the beginning. Was it God or was it matter? That is the first question to answer. It does not matter, for the sake of discussion, what name we give to this God (or gods). Once we answer it, we can then proceed to a comparison of mythologies versus the God of the Bible.

Chris Green
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Yes maybe there is a god….and maybe fairies are real…and big foot……. the point here is the time to believe in something is when the evidence supports the belief

Steve Ray Webb
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Chris Green, please tell me exactly what evidence you need to believe in God.

John Brain
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It is up to the person putting forward a proposition on supernatural beings to first provide supportive evidence for his statment. When people say things like “ghosts exist, I have seen them” or “Vishnu exists because I have felt his supernatural presence” or ” I know Jehovah exists because he speaks to me after I pray to him” or “Allah exists because the Quran is the true word of god, the Quran exists – therefore Allah exists” all these are faith statements, basically confusing feeling for fact. Let’s try not to do that. When looking for the answer to a question one should look first for the answer that assumes the least. The onus is always on the person bringing forward the initial proposition to show that what is being said is true and factual. An answer that basically says “I know by my faith that my god is the only existent true god, and you must believe as I do – or else” is a presumptuous self delusion. If an incredible living thing like a god did not need to be designed or created then lesser things in comparison – like the universe – would not have needed to be designed or created either, that’s logic. The big bang was probably the beginning of the current universe. All the energy that exists now also existed in the time that… Read more »

Steve Ray Webb
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This is why it is important for atheists to provide supporting evidence for why there is no God. I have seen nothing they have ever posted that disproves the existence of God. Just the opposite, as a scientist, I see all kinds of hard factual evidence of things that suggest intricate design along with the existence of innate moral values and desire for significance beyond the grave that go beyond anything random evolution would create. I also see the very existence of life, beyond the ability of our scientists using the most modern technology to create. In my experience, it is not that atheists have a strong case for the denial of God, but rather it is the fact that they don’t want there to be a God therefore all of their arguments are predisposed in that direction. When I answer one of their arguments they just go on to their next argument, round and round in circles instead of carefully thinking about alternative positions.

Chris Green
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Steve Ray Webb we don’t claim there is no God……we just don’t believe your claim that there is….

Chris Green
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Steve Ray Webb
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Did God cause us to kill each other or have we just chosen to do so against his will? The God of the Bible presents himself as giving us free will: the ability to do good or to do evil, rather than creating us as automatons. Free will allows us to love and be loved, but also allows us to hate and be hated. Being robots would be much safer but would rob us of our desires and inner emotions. Which of these worlds would be a better one to live in? God chose the former and I am glad for it.

Bruce Underhill
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Of course there is no god. However many people and societies think there is and more killing has been done in the name of their god than for any other reason. The bible and the Quran even recommends and commands believers to kill non believers. The reason the ancients put that disclaimer you mention in their literature was because they understood the impotence of their god and they simply made up that crap of free will to explain the shortcomings. It is all BS and any thinking person should be able to figure that out.

Steve Ray Webb
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Where does the Bible say to kill nonbelievers (I am quite familiar with it and can’t find such teaching)? And no, there have not been more killings in the name of religion. Think Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao Tse Tung, Kim of North Korea, etc. etc. Do some reading on the most mass murders in history – readily available to search. And what makes you think that free will was made up? Where is your proof of that? You just make rambling generalized statements with nothing of substance behind them.

Chris Green
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Free will is a bit contradictory with other claims about God……if God is omniscient then he has perfect knowledge of the future…..so he knows what I’m going to have for breakfast in a year…. how do I have a free will choice what to have for breakfast?…. and if I get up one year from today and think I will have toast for breakfast then change my mind and have cereal….it seems like free will but God already knew I was going to this….so it’s just an illusion of free will

Stephen Best
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Free will is simple, we all have it because we have too. We choose what job to do, what kind of person we want to be, weather to kill people or not and weather we believe in a man made God or not… Oh and Chris, I am having a fry up in a years time for breakfast, my choice not gods lol

Steve Ray Webb
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Chris Green, no, the fact that God knows what you are going to do does not mean that he forced you to do it. I know what my children are going to do in certain circumstances but that does not mean that I force them to do it. This is not a valid logical objection. Foreknowledge is not equal to predestination, as thousands of commentators have noted.

John Termaten
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Your god gave men a free will, but when men uses he free will and your god did not like it he drowned humanity. nice

Steve Ray Webb
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John Termaten, your statement is true. God does judge men, sooner or later, when they choose to do evil. This life has consequences. It does matter how we live. It is basically God’s boot camp for soul building. God wants people of a certain quality, character, and desire to follow him to be part of his coming kingdom.

John Brain
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Free will is incompatible with the will of an all powerful omniscient being. If god told you you were going to heaven – which he would know because he is omniscient – then there is nothing you could do to get yourself into hell. If you did wind up in hell – under those circumstances – you would have to come to one of two conclusions, either “god did not know you going to heaven”, which would make him “not” all powerful and not omniscient – or – god lied to you, which would mean he is not omnibenevolent.

If god is truly omniscient –by accepted definition – then only singular outcomes can transpire. Man would have no choice in his actions because everything would be predestined for only one outcome – and no other.

God has been given very clear attributes. He is said to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. These states take precedence over all other states of being. And some states of being are incompatible with these “godly” powers. “Free-will” being one of the main states that is incompatible
.

Steve Ray Webb
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Once again, free will does not equate to predestination. I may know the actions my children are going to take, but it is up to them to take them and experience the consequences, positive or negative for them. Also, we should not assume what God chooses to know or not know. Some theologians suggest that God could intentionally shield himself from certain future knowledge so as to more equitably interact with us humans. What I find more concerting here, in general, is the overt attempt to find reasons to disbelieve in God rather than reasons to believe. The questions and arguments I have seen posed thus far have been addressed and answered many times in many books. I don’t detect an awareness of them or even an interest in them.

John Brain
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God predestines some for salvation and he predestines others to damnation – free will not coming into play. While it may appear that you choose your actions, in the presence of an omniscient being this would all be preordained to have only one singular outcome. I don’t assume anything, I look at the accepted definition of gods attributes and can see that some states of being are incompatible with those attributes. Free will is incompatible with the will of an omniscient being. An all powerful being cannot turn off his omniscience to allow for free will and still be considered all powerful.

John Brain
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Predestination certainly does affect free will, if the future is preordained to have only one outcome then choice and free will do not come into play. And only one outcome is possible for all future events in the presence of an all powerful omniscient being. Saying that free will can exist in the presence of an omnisceint being is like saying god is all powerful and could make a married bachelor if he wanted. Only absurd gods can do illogical and absurd things.

Steve Ray Webb
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I am amazed to find Calvinists among atheists! Most Christians do not accept or believe rigid Calvinism (I am a frequent visitor to websites that argue the strengths and weaknesses of Calvinism versus Arminianism). Scripture is not clear on the subject of predestination, probably because it would be too much for our finite minds to comprehend, but in any case, a person cannot argue on the basis of the Bible that we are rigidly predestined. The necessity of choosing right from wrong, and receiving the just rewards or punishment from it, permeates the entire Bible. When all is said and done we can’t avoid seeing that there is an element where God chooses us but also an element where we are responsible for choosing God. Many books written on this subject.

John Brain
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It is an argument of logic. If you give a god (any god) the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence and the label of “his” being “perfect” then you have the problem of incompatibility with other lesser states of being – no matter what the bible says. One must not presuppose the truth of the bible – or any other holy book – when dominant attributes of god are incompatible with other lesser states of being – lesser states that supposedly exist alongside the dominant attributes – in the presence of god. Like the idea that free-will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being. It has to do with the logical understanding of what gods attributes mean – by universally understood definition, what the repercussions would be, and what other states of being are incompatible with a god having those traits. The bible also says that god created evil, that witches should be killed, and that it’s ok to take another human as a slave – this is incompatible with a being who is said to be (by definition) omnibenevolent. Calvinists were very smart and courageous to stick with hard logic in relation to the issue, knowing that gods “omniscience” and “omnipotence” would be the dominant states of being. Calvin understood that certain lesser states of being were incompatible with dominant states like omniscience. He believed it knowing it… Read more »

Steve Ray Webb
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I think you are missing the point that if there is a god who is truly omniscient, then he has the power to allow for free will. By analogy, if I was an all powerful dictatator I could determine most of the actions of my subjects or I could let them decide things for themselves. On a different level that is the world God has created. And because god has granted this freedom it allows for the existence of both good and evil per one of my prior posts. God did not create evil but his giving us a free hand in moral choices has allowed for the existence of it.

John Brain
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You are missing the logic, that in order for an all powerful omniscient being to allow for free will he would have to lessen his powers to allow for it to exist. If this happened then you could no longer say that god was omnipotent. Even an omnipotent god cannot do the illogical, god cannot make a married bachelor, and god does not have the power to draw a perfectly round square.

Omniscience does not mean that god can do the illogical or the absurd, and it is absurd to say that free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being. God cannot do anything he wants; he can only do logical things. Only illogical beings can do illogical things. If god cannot make a married bachelor then he also cannot allow free will to exist while maintaining his omnipotent state of being. Both statements are equally illogical.

John Brain
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If you start with the assumption that god is omnipotent and omniscient, then you cannot say that every other lesser state of being is compatible with these dominant states that god possesses. And being omnipotent does not mean that anything is possible to you.

John Brain
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If you believe that gods omnipotence allows him to create married bachelors, and perfectly round squares then yes, you will believe just about any absurdity that supports your flawed belief system.

Steve Ray Webb
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You are presupposing that God is inexorably caught up in his own nature. That is what pantheists believe. Instead the God Christians believe is not at the mercy of the forces of the universe that include his existence. Instead, this God truly is omniscient. He has control of energy, matter, and the universe that he has created. The God you describe is one possible version of a God, but it is certainly not the only one, and is not the God of the Bible.

John Brain
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It is illogical and absurd to say “god is the creator of all things, evil is an existent thing, but god did not create evil”! So Steve, when you say that god did not create evil, you are saying that god is NOT the creator of all things. I wonder how many other things exist that god did not create? It’s the logical thing to ask.

Steve Ray Webb
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Actually, your analogy of making round squares is the exact example that C.S. Lewis uses when he says that nonsense is nonsense even when it is applied to God. Once again you are using a straw man argument, creating a god who doesn’t exist so you can knock him down. Christians believe in a God who has power over the universe, including the power to create beings who have free will.

Steve Ray Webb
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If I allow my child to go to the store by himself, unsupervised, and without my knowledge he commits a crime, shoplifting something. Am I the one who committed the crime? Certainly not. I created the freedom that allowed for this to happen, but assuming the child is of legal age, it is not me who will be convicted of a crime. This is the crux of the whole argument God created an environment of freedom where good and bad could happen but it is futile to then blame the bad on god.

Bruce Underhill
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Bruce Underhill
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If you don’t agree or don’t like the violent and negative verses in the bible, then you can ignore them. You can cherry pick. However, if you do that, you can not call the bible the perfect book or god’s word. It either is, or it is not.

Steve Ray Webb
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You changed the topic, which is what always happens on these atheist websites rather than admit I have a cogent point. As far as the harsh language in the Old Testament of the Bible, it was there to show God’s standards. As a result, these standards were seldom violated. Historically, there were almost no executions for the crimes you mention. The law was understood and carefully followed by the Jews. But the New Testament is a fulfillment and replacement of the Old through Jesus Christ. All Christians agree and accept it as such. I encourage you to critique the laws and standards that we now believe are in effect through it.

Steve Ray Webb
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And keep in mind that the Old Testament laws were specifically targeted at the Jewish nation. They were not applicable to everyone else, who God was judging by different standards (I can supply the Scriptures supporting this). It was not until Jesus came for the sins of the whole world that the rest of us were being held to the same standards as the Jews.

John Termaten
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Steve Ray Webb I love it when Christians are using the free will excuse. free will but when god did not liked what man did whit his free will, he drowned them all. Your God killed first born children to make a point, he could easily killed the pharaoh right ? The same argument Christians like to use is… god has a plan. If so, why pray, to change his plan ?

Steve Ray Webb
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We have already covered this ground, but to repeat, God does hold mankind accountable for his evils. The same as he rewards him when he chooses to obey him. As for prayer, God intentionally subjects himself, at least at times and to various degrees, to our prayers when asked earnestly and when walking in faith. God’s ultimate will is going to be carried out, but he allows some freedom within it. As for the Egyptians, they had to be thoroughly demoralized and demilitarized or the Israelites would never have escaped them. There are books written on these subjects. Please do not expect to have complex theological questions answered in a few sentences on Facebook. I can provide the names of books and authors for specific questions.

John Brain
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Steve Ray Webb, “you” are the one putting forward the proposition that your god exists – that other people’s gods do not, and that your god is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent – and perfect. I am not the one presupposing anything – you are, by your statements and definitions of gods’ essence. I am without the idea of gods. I look at your proposition (that your god exists), examine the traits that you give your god, and look at whether your argument can stand up under logical scrutiny. You say that god has those all powerful attributes – but those attributes logically supersede many other lesser states of being you also ascribe to him. And yes it is just as absurd to say that god allows free will while remaining omniscient – as it is to say that god can make a married bachelor. Neither absurd statement makes logical sense given the universally understood definition of those attributes. That free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being is absurd. And no amount of wishful attributes you give – or your personal redefinition of words – can make the logically absurd more truthful. By definition the god you describe is too absurd to possibly exist. As for god’s laws – about how it’s ok to take slaves and kill witches etc. – they are not the kind of things… Read more »

Gerald Lloyd
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The Humanist Codex In Luke Jesus is telling a story relating how things are with the kings of the earth. He did not say that is what HE or HIS FATHER would do. I understand that He is making the point about the seriousness of what He is referring to. To the other Scripture – if I say “I am going to put some fire under him/her”, surely that is not literally.. You choose to see this your way. There is much too much in Jesus’ teachings that show that killing is not His method. No intelligent person would take something out of its context. of course we get this on a daily basis in sensational journalism where what someone has said is taken out of context.

Doreen Fenwick
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Yes John Brain?? I find YOU Very illogical the mind BOGGLES. I SENSE ALL OF WHAT YOUVE PUT ON HERE HAS BEEN COPIED FROM A BOOK OR SOME Literature of some kind and not from any of your own thinking. x.

Steve Ray Webb
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John Brain, you are putting forth the proposition that God does not exist. I and a lot of other people keep providing rationale and evidence that he does exist. I keep waiting to see your proof that he does not exist. It certainly has not been forthcoming so far.

Stephen Best
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Steve Ray Webb, do you believe in fairies? I suspect you don’t. Can you prove to me that they don’t exist. I bet you can’t as it is impossible to prove a negative…

Steve Ray Webb
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Yes, there is no logical reason to believe in fairies, no physical evidence of them (such as structures they have built), no philosophical reason, no moral reason, and no communication from them. I consider that substantial proof that fairies do not exist. Once again this website is not weighing the strengths and weaknesses of whether god exists as an agnostic one would do; it is dogmatically saying he doesn’t. You need substantial proof for that position not just weak generalizations.

Stephen Best
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So show me a structure that God has built, show me any physical evidence that he exists… Apart from some books that were written by man, what evidence do you have of God?

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen Best, easy one. The DNA molecule (for starters). The complexity of it is staggering. There have been no serious attempts at explaining how it could have evolved from random inorganic chemicals. Science has been utterly unable to create such a molecule under the best of laboratory conditions.

Stephen Best
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Ok so 200 years ago science could not have conceived of flying a rocket to the moon, never mind sending a man made object out of the solar system. So can you prove that in 200 years from now, science will not be able to explain the DNA molecule… 1000 years ago humans did not understand how disease spread and countless people died unnecessarily, did god stop that or did man learn and develop cures?

Steve Ray Webb
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Over 200 years ago there were books being written about exploring the universe. And this exploration was ultimately done using intelligent minds! Why do you compare work done by intelligence with DNA, which is much more complicated, and which you think can be created by random processes. Incredible!!! Every time atheists are presented with something that is far beyond statistical odds, they fall back to the ‘hopeful monster theory’ where “surely something must happen in the future that supports our shaky belief.”

Stephen Best
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Says someone who believes that in the future, God is going to return to earth and punish everyone who hasn’t lived according to his laws… So do I live according to the OT and stone gay people and adulterous people to death or live by the NT AND BELIEVE THAT GOD CHANGED HIS MIND. I’m confused…

Steve Ray Webb
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To which of the 10 Commandments do you object? That is the moral law that was given in the Old Testament and later affirmed by Jesus. In fact, he ended up summing all the commandments into two: Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. The ceremonial and civil laws of the Old Testament applied strictly to the Jewish nation, as discussed in an earlier post. The rest of the world at that time was judged by different standards (I can provide scripture references). Now, all the world (Jews and Gentiles) are judged by Jesus’ teachings. I encourage you to read the book of John in the New Testament and tell me where you object.

John Brain
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Doreen Fenwick, Maybe I’m just more logical than you are? I don’t believe everything that I’ve read, but I do support logical arguments. Don’t get me wrong, I get the feeling that what you are saying came from a book, that you are parroting what this book says about it being the only truth, and that you believe it must be true, because you desperately want it to be true.

I think my arguments hold water, while your arguments about believing in a god who supported slavery and the killing of witches is misguided. Jolly good show my dear! LMAO!

John Brain
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Steve Ray Webb, I have never said that gods can’t exist; I’m saying that we don’t know if he/she or “it” exists. I would say the same thing about ghosts and genies. If a god can exist then ghosts and genies can exist too. Your argument for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god named Jehovah does not hold water. The god you describe is self contradictory – especially when you give your god various attributes that cannot coexist together.

You Steve are the one putting forth the proposition that your god exists (while other people’s gods do not) it is up to you to offer non contradictory evidence that supports your belief. I cannot disprove your belief in a supernatural being – one that told his followers to take slaves and kill witches; I can only say that I think it is highly unlikely. Just because I cannot prove that supernatural beings do not exist does not make their existence any more likely. I’m not proposing anything, I am only pointing out inconsistencies about the attributes you give to your particular god.

Steve, am I right that you believe that your god is: all knowing, all powerful, infinitely good and perfect?

John Brain
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Steve Ray Webb Curious that in Isaiah 40:8 it says: “The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever.” As the Old Testament is the infallible inspired word of god – supposedly – and as it says that “God’s word will stand forever” why is it that some people say that god’s infallible word in the Old Testament is not to be followed anymore – all the rules, regulations, acts, and punishments for certain behaviors. Were not the laws and acts condoned in the Old Testament meant to be seen as a universal vision of conduct for future generations to follow? Should not god’s laws and rules be seen as a guide for all men to follow – because coming from god they must be the best and most logical rules and laws – to make the world a better place? Are Jesus and Jehovah not one in the same? Jesus (a Jew) did say that he did not come to destroy the old laws, but to fulfill them. He was talking about the laws and rules that his perfect and omnipotent “father” laid out in the Old Testament wasn’t he? Why would god nullify any of the laws or rules that would supposedly “stand for ever” – are god’s laws and rules not timeless? And why do Christians often cherry pick passages… Read more »

Stephen Best
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Can anyone do somthing for me? Tell me three facts about God that I can’t dispute… Easy right

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen Best can you tell me 3 facts about atheism that I can’t dispute?

Steve Ray Webb
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John brain one of debate strategies is to throw out a whole bunch of arguments at one time, each of them a major subject in themselves, knowing that they can’t be answered in a few short sentences. Each of your objections have been answered in great detail by scientists and theologians. That is why I keep naming books and authors. As just one example, the concept of God that you keep presupposing is not the Christian god. I don’t believe in him either. The Christian God is not part of nature. He stands completely outside of space and time. He created the universe starting with the big bang. I recommend any of Alvin plantingas books ( he is a Christian philosopher and former professor at Notre dame). His books have caught the admiration of many unbelievers.

Stephen Best
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Steve you are telling us that God exists, all I am asking for are three facts that prove that is true…

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen Best, this website is dedicated to supporting atheism rather than agnosticism. If you are going to do that you need to provide solid and specific support for it, not just the tearing down of other beliefs. Where is your support?

Steve Ray Webb
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It is not unreasonable for me to ask for 3 indisputable facts that support atheism.

Stephen Best
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I never said it was unreasonable for you to ask but I will do somthing not many people will do… I will be honest with you… I can not prove God doesn’t exist, thing is I don’t have too… I can’t prove fairys don’t exist either but most people would agree that they don’t…. So if you agree that fairys don’t exist, then why believe in God when there is no physical proof of God…

Steve Ray Webb
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I think there is a lot of physical proof of God. Please clearly specify exactly what proof you need.

Stephen Best
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Going back to what I said before, three facts about God that I can’t dispute. If physical evidence of God exists then it should be easy…

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen Best, I see loads of physical evidence! Please be more specific. Exactly what physical evidence do you want to see?

Stephen Best
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Well somthing I could touch

Steve Ray Webb
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There are countless cell structures, organs, and organic systems on both the microscopic and macroscopic level that defy all probability in terms of their being produced by randomly colliding molecules. Scientists are unable to duplicate any of them nor explain how they could have naturally occurred. Isn’t that what we would expect from a creating God? What else would you expect? You have to do better than that!

Steve Ray Webb
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The above is symptomatic of when I ask atheists what it would take for them to believe in God, I seldom receive a reply that is specific. This is because most atheists (I admit not all) do not have an answer because they don’t want there to be an answer. Their mind is made up. They don’t want there to be a God (for a variety of reasons) and they are not going to consider any rationale to the contrary. If there is nothing that can convince you of God’s reality then all discussion is beside the point.

Stephen Best
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Steve I don’t know if a god exists, I don’t believe in the God in the bible or Koran etc… I will says bout your proof however, you may be right that science can’t explain them things today but how much can science explain now that was a mystery 100 years ago…

Stephen Best
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If I travel back in time to the Stone Age with my iPhone, and show someone a film…. Do you think I could explain to him how it works or would he think it was magic and could hav only been created by a God…

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen there has always been reasonably agreed upon criteria as to whether an object was made or if it was naturally formed. DNA, for example, requires astronomically correct combinations to support a living organism not to mention the odds of even small strands of it forming in the first place. The odds of it forming naturally are magnitudes greater than a grand piano being formed by the random collision of atoms. When you start facing odds that high the statistics fall apart and you begin to look for other alternatives. This universe is a strange place and any answer as to what was present at the beginning is the strangest of all, but I cannot see how someone can be a rigid atheist. Being one leaves too many difficult questions unanswered.

Stephen Best
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I definitely wouldn’t say I am rigid…. I don’t believe that a God created the universe just for us in fact I find that to be arrogant…. I also think it is almost certain that extra terrestrial life exists

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen Best, the bible, in which I am a believer, makes no comment about either subject. From a theology point of view I have no objection to life on other planets, but from a science standpoint, life that is anywhere close to what we have, has to meet an amazing number of thresholds. Our planet is amazingly finetuned for life, many of which we are just coming to understand.

Stephen Best
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I totally agree about life but and I know I am only speculating but if we made contact with 100 alien Civilisations and none of them had any knowledge of God, would that prove he doesn’t exist?

Steve Ray Webb
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Yes, it would probably prove that God does not exist, but that is extremely hypothetical because I don’t believe we will have contact with even a single alien civilization. The reason for this is that another civilization will either have lost their innocence (per our break with God in the Garden of Eden) or they will have maintained their innocence. In the first case, whichever one of us is stronger will end up seriously harming the other. In the latter case, we would unquestionably do harm to the alien civilization. In other words, I suspect God is protecting us or them from harm by keeping us separated. C.S. Lewis has a sci-fi trilogy based on these concepts. The space technology in these books is extremely elementary but the concepts are fun to read.

Stephen Best
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Well I do respect the fact that you can admit that even though extremely hypothetical, it may be possible for God not to exist. Although even if we do discover life in the universe, it will most likely be long after me and you are dead… So i think me and you will find out if God exists before we know if aliens exist.

Steve Ray Webb
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Stephen hawking is fearful of us contacting alien civilizations because if they are advanced enough to come here, they are advanced enough to do us great harm. Things would probably not go well for us.

Stephen Best
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Yeah, I think he uses the europium colonisation of the Americas as a template. I do tend to agree with him.

Bruce Underhill
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Anyway, who cares if there is a god or if there isn’t? If there is a god, the only thing he has done for humanity is cause us to kill each other.

Ian McKerracher
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_____
The Claim: “Religion has been the primary cause of war and oppression throughout the history of mankind.”

The Truth: In their comprehensive Encyclopedia of Wars, Phillips and Axelrod document the recorded history of warfare. Of the 1,763 wars presented, a mere 7% involved a religious cause. When Islam is subtracted from the equation, that number drops to 3.2%.
In terms of casualties, religious wars account for only 2% of all people killed by warfare. This pales in comparison to the number of people who have been killed by secular dictators in the 20th century alone.
_____

Ian McKerracher
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Actually the body count from religious sources has the interesting detail of being, many times, in opposition to the stated doctrine of the religion, especially Christianity. In contrast, the pursuit of the stated doctrines of Atheism has a body count numbering in the over a hundred million in the last century alone. It is demonstrably safer amongst religious people than chumming with Atheists.

Gerald Lloyd
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“The only thing”??? WOW!

John Termaten
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I have never hear anybody saying lets kill in the name of atheism. but have heard lets kill in the name of god.

Bruce Underhill
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John Termaten I agree, and what is really bizarre, is that opposing armies in the past, Germans and Allies, each prey to god before the action asking they be victorious. Talk about a conflict of interest on god’s part.

Ian McKerracher
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Yes you are right. It is still clear that the average person is many times more subject to violent demise from an atheist who wields power than others. It is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that religious people are somehow murderous when the numbers don’t agree.
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

Bruce Underhill
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Steve Ray Webb
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All of us are capable of recognizing something that is designed versus something that has naturally occurred. The black monolith in the movie 2001 Space Odyssey, is an example of something that was immediately recognized as being designed despite its extreme simplicity. The fact is that cell biologists are more and more seeing incredibly complex structures that defy explanation other than the fact that they were designed. The evidence of this is not going to go away, nor will the scientists who are recognizing it go away.. Calling it the ‘god of the gaps’ simply means that you do not want to consider the possibility of design, and probably don’t even want to see the evidence.

Bruce Underhill
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Evidence of design? What evidence?

Steve Ray Webb
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A lot of it, but it requires a fair bit of technical detail to describe, not easy to do on FB. And much of it requires that you have a reasonably good foundation in chemistry and biology. I recommend starting with biochemist Michael Behe’s book, Darwins Black Box, and then there are many more book choices from there. A close relative of mine, who asks that his name not be mentioned, is a PhD in cell biology and he says that he is seeing many examples of “mouse trap” types of irreducible complexity that would require statistical odds beyond calculation for them to come together randomly. If there were just isolated examples of such things, it would be one thing, but it turns out that they are all over the place in the biologic world.

Chris Green
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Thought behe was laughed out of court in the Dover trial?

Doreen Fenwick
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Steve Ray these people wouldnt recognize truth if it was full in their faces. They dont want proof they just like the arguement.Ive had my fill of it.A WASTE OF OUR TIME X.

Steve Ray Webb
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Doreen, I read stories every day of people changing their minds about what they believe. Don’t lose heart.

John Brain
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Doreen, your argument is based on what this meme says: LMAO! Your god exists, and no other gods exist, and you know this to be true by your faith, good one!

Dale Tonner
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All of the energy that can not be created or destroyed is eternal with no beginning or end .I Believe that is” God” . The God you think all believers believe in is for the simple and Children.

John Brain
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Then Dale, what you are saying is that all existent energy is part of god, that he created nothing, as all energy that exists is simply part of his own essence. Then nothing exists outside of gods existent essence, and all that exists is god? The problem comes in that we can see imperfection in the universe, and imperfect things are incompatible with the will of an omnipotent and perfect god. Imperfection cannot logically come from perfection. It’s like saying that god is all powerful, and could make a married bachelor if he wanted. Perhaps god is not “perfect”?

Dale Tonner
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No i am saying it is God , everywhere and everything , you and me all part of one big thing . Jesus has be misquoted he did not say”i am god “he said “we are god” all gods kids . He got it . He understood how we are all joined spiritually or eternal energy and died for that belief. Call it a universe if you like, Of course it isnt perfect . Im firm believer that gods mind is chaos and the only reason i say god is to join the religious idea to the logical one and see a universal truth.

Dale Tonner
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The Humanist Codex I think you would be surprised how many deist reside within theist institutions slowly altering ritual to gain value within modern society . I dont under stand the atheist end game . If it is to to instill logic and eliminate theism globally than you are on a next to impossible mission like the desire to enforce capitalism and democracy on the entire planet that is not mentally or educationally evolved enough to possibly manifest within the next score of generations. Real change comes from within and evolution has taught us it happens in baby steps. Peace be with you.

Doreen Fenwick
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Hilarious.Dream on Dream on The Arrogance, Stubborness Haughtiness.STUNS ME. AND TAKING GODS NAME IN A VAIN WAY is horrifying I really fear for you all I really do x.

Doreen Fenwick
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Ps !! As Jehovah states “I AM COMING AND ITS SOON WHEN I WILL SANCTIFY MY NAME. AND YOU WILL HAVE TO KNOW I AM JEHOVAH YOUR GOD”X.

Doreen Fenwick
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Ps The emphasis is ” I AM understand??

Dale Tonner
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Doreen Fenwick adding more has does not mean its funnier. Its blind following and rants like that are the reason people embrace atheism because people like you make all people that embrace eternal spiritual energy look insane.

John Brain
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But Doreen has all the answers, Jehovah must have spoken to her personally, like he did to Moses! Lol.

Dale Tonner
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John Brain This is what make me angry, literal interpretation. When Jebus said ” believe in me and you will have eternal life” . I understood when I read this when I was 6 that it aint that easy . You dont just have to believe he existed and praise his name , you actually have to believe in his ways . Give up material ways . love your neighbor help the poor and heal the sick. Then you feel the value of your eternal life Not be a self righteous judgmental ahole. and think your going to heaven The word of the Lord.

John Brain
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The ways and laws of Jehovah (who is one with Jesus) are sometimes baffling and often not very amusing. Much unnecessary suffering took place because of what was condoned in the Old Testament. Things that should have been called abominations were not, and became an excuse to persecute others and to make their lives miserable.

I only wish that slavery and other barbaric things were clearly called abominations in the Old Testament. That is was ok for Moses to command that non virgin women be killed – along with male children – in one instance – is just beyond belief!

Dale Tonner
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The people forget that religion was all powerful in the before time . It was the peoples will and they were nasty then. You listen to old testies today and they are no different . Not worthy of a modern secular utopia but centuries more of totalitarian enslavement. It is their will. Gods will be done.

John Brain
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The ways and laws of Jehovah (who is one with Jesus) are sometimes baffling and often not very amusing. Much unnecessary suffering took place because of what was condoned in the Old Testament. Things that should have been called abominations became an excuse to persecute others and to make their lives miserable. I only wish that slavery and other barbaric things were clearly called abominations in the Old Testament. That is was ok for Moses to command that non virgin women be killed – along with male children – in one instance – is just beyond belief! God will and his eternal laws should have been a milestone in showing man the way forward to more humane living, they should have been clear enough to help put an end unnecessary cruelty and absurdities. Human nature has not changed much – if at all – in the last few thousand years, considering modern man has been around for about 200.000 years. The laws in the Old Testament should have worked to help eliminate atrocities – and the mindset that perpetuated them. Religion was all powerful then, and it was the god of the Old Testament who set some pretty bad precedents for his people to follow. Did Jesus say that slavery was an abomination, and to do it no more? No. Jesus would heal slaves, but never condemned the slavery that… Read more »

Dale Tonner
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Old type laws were always bad for woman up to 50 years ago even here not just religion by the people or men in power and the word of jesus has been twisted since the day he died. Its up to us to see the truth in his message. He was a Rebel in the eyes of the olds that’s why they wanted him dead . The dude was righteous, he flipped tables and even if you dont buy into “we are all one in god” thing you may admit the guy had a pretty chill take on life. He didnt give me an eternal pass he made me aware I had one all along and should be just as chill during my time here but whatever I do I will have to live with it eternally.

John Brain
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Old type laws – from an eternal god whose laws stand forever. Why would gods laws need to be changed, if that is what he directed his people to do? Giving unsound laws only helps perpetuate misery, he should have concentrated on destroying the kind of ignorance that hinders the abolition of things like slavery and other evils.

Dale Tonner
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John Brain I f you believe god is an individual super being than thats true but god the deity is a manifestation of mankind and did not do all the bad things ,man did . God the universe is merely existent not directional and evolves as man does. When you see the universe as God and non interfering higher power than shit just happens and god and life are to be taken with gratitude for all good that happens not blamed for our shortcomings. Atheist need to understand that not all spiritual people personify god in such literal ways and when they fall back on that argument they have shown their own 2 dimensional thinking and lack the ability to imagine things beyond literal interpretations the same as fundamentalists.

John Brain
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If one believes that Jehovah is god, and the bible is his true unerring word, then the laws that are in the bible are the true eternal word of god. I never question anybody who says “I believe that gods exist by my faith, and I hope that someday you will believe as I do”. I do have a problem when people say ” I know what the one truth is, my god exists and yours does not, my holy book is gods only true word, you must follow it too or god will punish you in a lake of eternal fire”. I question this kind of dogmatic belief.

Dale Tonner
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John Brain i hear ya. As I said before some are without spiritual evolution and it takes some serious non literal interpretation to tolerate the good book within an all faith forgiving ideology but if you believe that hell is in your own mind and not a burning pit in the afterlife and a psychological and spiritual penalty box you make for yourself , you can use the bible as historical spiritual guide book not something to take without a literary grain of salt . Heaven is the same if all goes well in my afterlife I will be piloting a starship and seeing what is really out there.

Doreen Fenwick
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Steve Shilling, exactly xx.

John Brain
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If any living being exists that did not need to be designed or created, then lesser living things – in comparison – would not have needed to be designed or created either. And understand, energy and matter cannot be created from a true state of non-existence, nor can existent energy or matter be utterly destroyed to the point that it ceases to exist completely. This means that there is no creator god, and no destroyer god.

The energy that exists in the universe has always existed, and if a god – or gods – exist they are made of a form of energy as well – uncreated eternal energy. If a god exists then he (or it) is up to the same kind of scientific scrutiny as any other existent thing in the universe – nothing is exempt. Dr. Hawking makes a good point:

Andrew Hough
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Such arguments have convinced me of the non-existence of the supreme being – I no longer believe in the existence of atheists.

David Spelman
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Well, I guess if you wish convince yourself that everything came from nothing, because of nothing, and for no reason at all, then little will change your mind. However, using the very same logic you employ, this is NOT a proof that God does not exist 🙂

David Spelman
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But – we still come back to this question of what is “Evidence” – how can we define “Evidence” so that it might be agreed upon or accepted ??

Gerald Lloyd
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How much EVIDENCE do we need? Do you not believe that there is something called ‘wind’? Of course, because we SEE the evidence which is trees blowing etc. Every so often scientists are saying that some new information will radically change their view of something. How much of all that is to be known is actually known? 1%? 10%? 20%? God must be laughing at our arrogance!

David Spelman
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Member

Gerald Lloyd God may weep over our waywardness, but He will not laugh. If Jesus was gracious enough to offer Thomas the opportunity to stick his fingers into the nail wounds, and hand into the spear thrust, then we too, should show the same grace when encouraging others to discover the truth

Doreen Fenwick
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Simples Atheist?? Because no-one cared enough to question your claim hahaha x.

Doreen Fenwick
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The Athiest get it correct, Athiests and Evolutionists have to resort to ITS A MYSTERY, when you dont know the answers to a lot of the questions on whys and where fors of how we got here and the like xx.

Bruce Underhill
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Member

Deists say “it must be God”. Atheists say “we don’t know, but we are working on it.”

Doreen Fenwick
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Hell Fire means fiery Grave. Hell is just another name for Grave, along with Sheol, and Hades Fire is symbolised as not being to come back from, so Hell Fire means everlasting death in a cold dank Grave x.

Chris Green
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Hi Doreen Fenwick….. hi all
2 guys are discussing what 2+2=…….
The first guy says” I claim that 2+2=57….. what do you say?”
The second guy says ” I don’t know….I don’t know what 2+2=”
The first guy says ” great!….I win!…..2+2=57″
Now change the equation to ” universe + life = god”
It’s the same mistake

Doreen Fenwick
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Cant I go anywhere without you Chris are you going to be my nemesis.But have to say your analysis isnt any proof of anything in favour of Atheism.Vague at best xx.

John Brain
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. The argument “my god exists therefore he exists” is an inappropriate answer, and is nothing more than a wish statement, and is not a statement of fact. Saying “my god exists therefore he exists” is not a logical statement, as it merely presupposes the existence of a thing unproven. It is not analogous to a logical statement like “1+1=2” For “god” is an unproven element or proposition.

The Hindu says “My god exists, he gave us our holy books and they prove my god existence”, the Christian will say “the bible is the word of my god, the bible exists therefore my god exists”, the Muslim would say ” The Koran is the only true book of god, the Koran exists therefore Allah exists”. I think you will agree that none of these propositional statements -about god existing – is analogous to saying 2+2 = 4. Either only one of them is true, or none of them are. Just because someone cannot disprove the existence of supernatural beings like gods, ghosts, or genies does not mean that they are any more likely to exist. In this case it seems that some people are mistaking faith for fact. It isn’t.

John Brain
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Member

2+2=57 is similar to saying “god is omniscient, he infallibly knows the past the present and the future, and all future outcomes are predestined by god to have only one outcome – but free will exists for man” Both are illogical absurd statements.

It’s as absurd as saying “god is all powerful, he can do anything, he could make a married bachelor if he wanted”. Only absurd gods are said to be capable of making married bachelors. And only absurd gods are said to allow free will to exist while still remaining “all powerful”. It is also absurd to say that god is omnibenevolent – but that he created evil, and supported the killing of witches!

John Brain
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Member

It’s one thing for a Hindu to say ” I am seeking ultimate truth”. It’s another for a Hindu to say ” I have found the truth, and you must believe as I do – or else”! It’s as well one thing for a Christian to say ” I am seeking ultimate truth” it is another thing for the Christian to say ” I have found the truth, and you must believe as I do – or else”. Do you see the problem here? Each side has the unrepentent gall to say that his truth is “the only truth” and that the other guys is not. Nothing wrong with seeking the truth, the problem comes when people say “I have found the only truth, and you too must believe”! What total B.S!

Chris Green
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Yes religious thinking is based on many known fallacies……the argument from ignorance fallacy and the argument from personal incredulity being two of the main ones

Chris Green
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This is pascal’s wager……you never spend any time worrying about other religions Hell…..

John Brain
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Ian Macnaught, once again you are presupposing the existence of something that has not been proven to exist. You should instead simply say “I believe in my god by faith, and I hope someday you will believe as I do”.

“Ighwucxz + Ighwucxz = God”!

John Termaten
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Doreen Fenwick As an atheist I do not have to proof anything or use an argument for being an atheist. I simply do not believe in a god. It seems more to me that so Called Christians are more then willing to attack me on my not beliefs. So please do not come up with all the fear mongering about burning in hell. I believe your mighty god can make up his own mind about me, not you. Isn’t blasphemy to use his name in vain?

Doreen Fenwick
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Bruce Underhill ?? How many more centuries do you need x.

Doreen Fenwick
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John Termaton?? Can you please tell your fellow Atheists not to attack us then x.

Doreen Fenwick
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Ps John T?? Thats where you are wrong. We and you and Evolutionists and any other alternative believers of whatever, constantly have to prove who we are, there is no escape until as I say often, Gods coming Day when we all have to stand and be counted and the TRUTH WILL BE KNOWN X.

Chris Green
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Oh hello Doreen Fenwick….nothing sinks in with you does it?… you have the burden of proof…always….and over 2,000 years you have failed …spectacularly…..to meet the burden of proof

Doreen Fenwick
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The Truth is never inappropriate John Brain and truth will reveal all in a very little while. I HOPE YOU ARE ALL READY FOR IT, BECAUSE WE CANT STOP IT AND WE CANT MAKE IT GO AWAY X.

Doreen Fenwick
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Chris I can safely say, YOU ARE THE ONE, WHO WILL NEVER GET IT You belong to your Father THE DEVIL and Totally blind to the realities x.

Chris Green
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These are just assertions Doreen Fenwick.. you haven’t proved any of it…you just assert its the truth….

Chris Green
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Doreen Fenwick
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Probably?? Unlike you John Brain? Believers in Jehovah dont acknowledge him on speck. We do as Jehovah encourages to seek out and question everything to see if it agrees with his truths in the Bible. This includes Historic, geographic Times and circumstance Archaeology and the like also Science. NO WE DONT RECOGNIZE BLIND FAITH. LIKE YOU ATHEISTS AND EVOLUTIONISTS. We can honour our beliefs in pure honesty and true Faith We have nothing to fear xx.

Chris Green
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I think of you as an old friend Doreen Fenwick…we have been debating for months….and I keep telling you I don’t believe in the devil either…he’s just as silly and made up as your god

Chris Green
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Ian McKerracher
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The headline leads one to wonder how many times ID has to show that they are so much more than a “God of the gaps” argument. Reading the headline that starts with a straw man doesn’t lead me to care what the rest has to say. Atheists need better arguments.

Bruce Underhill
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Ian McKerracher
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Bruce Underhill since you had to have others make your case for you, I think it may be safe to assume that you are unsure of your facts. As for Mr. Harris, he is suggesting that he has a view that would be only a God-like view to see the end of all the evil that he listed. I wonder, in the absence of God , where does his sensibilities pertaining to Good and Evil come from? Even more so, where is it going? In the grand scheme of Naturalism, the entire Universe will do away with any purpose for Good or Evil when Entropy has its way with us. Mr. Harris has smuggled God into his argument without due credit.

Ian McKerracher
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“Natural selection bred these into us” I am unsure about the mechanics of this. Natural selection working on mutation-driven change….I would be surprised to see where physics and chemistry creates morality. We all know that is not possible. Most atheists are proud of their bleak meta-narrative of bravely looking at life without ultimate purpose square in the eye and not like those religious types that need some support when looking at Death. Why. all of a sudden, atheists want to change that story to include fairy tales of molecules waking up to a moral sense?

Bob Claxton
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The idea that things can be complex and there be no design, no designer goes against logic. It also goes against the “odds”.

Doreen Fenwick
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Its amazing,especially for instance when it comes to a human??? How complex is even one human cell.The Evolutionists and Atheisism and any who disagree with Gods Creation see humans as a beings they dont bother or dont realise how a human is made up. I suggest to these people, Get in touch with human anatomy Scientists who deal with everything in a human body, its amazingly incredible.It definately proves its taken a Mathamatic Genious of great proportions and infinate Knowledge and Love in the making of humans. Also all our habitat and Universe, all with great love and care for our safety at all times.xx.

Bob Claxton
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Doreen Fenwick Totally agree with you. It also amazing that anyone could look at the hand in front of their own face and not wonder “who made it?” Even just the thumb. Could go on and on. Cheers

Chris Green
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Noooo……hi Doreen Fenwick….. you don’t recognise design by complexity…my coffee cup is sitting on a coaster….both the cup and coaster I recognise as designed…there is nothing complex…so how do I know they’re designed?..think about it….and our body? …designed?!…. one tube for breathing and eating so I can choke to death…that’s stupid design…..the appendix….why was that designed?… and I could go on and on

Chris Green
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Yes exactly I’ve heard the laryngeal nerve one before…..so obviously not intelligent design

Bob Claxton
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New Comment based on statements and replies: January 5, 2016 5:00 AM Pacific Time – ODDS You have just spoken the Achilles heel of those that do not believe that Jesus created all things. That is “the odds”. Understanding how odds work and apply in science, the 27 to 1 or better whereby science may correctly conclude a sure thing needs to be understood and agreed. If not 27 to 1 then pick a number of your own liking. Any number will do. Make it 100 to 1 or even a billion. Until a person decides what they will accept as proof there are no words that can convince that person of what is obvious and believed by the majority of humans alive today, dead or to come. The fact is there has been, is and will be more people that believe in something that we call God as opposed to not believe and call themselves atheist. My friends if you cannot deal with the subject of odds and its application to the subject of the Bible and by extension things created which brings in science then you are chasing your tail. I suspect most people have heard analogies that involve the pieces of a watch being rolled or shaken and the odds of it ever assembling itself? Let me stir the pot. A single screw being shaken and a… Read more »

Chris Green
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Paleys watchmaker argument has been debunked numerous times

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green I wasn’t really presenting that argument and have no knowledge of it being debunked. However, I did go from that as an example of something people are aware of argumentatively to explain the changes of a simple screw and nut ending up together and wound tight no matter how long is given for it to happen. Can I assume you understood this and just wanted to say the other as matter of fact or opinion?

Chris Green
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The beer in my glass is sitting on a beer mat…..is the glass and the beer mat designed?

Chris Green
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I think I understand what you’re saying…..things don’t happen by accident?

Chris Green
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And in your previous comment you used the ” argument ad populum” fallacy…… the fact that millions of people believe it is irrelevant to whether it’s actually true

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green Yes. Democrats can have huge numbers, doesn’t mean they are right. Billions of people believing in a god, God or other form of Creator does not in itself prove that any or all exist. However, that was not my point. I am and always will be talking about “Creation” and the “Creator” in light of the things called odds favoring the existence and fact of creation not evolution or happen chance. Thus, the odds are in favor of “God” in some or all forms because of the numbers of believers of one kind or another as opposed to those that believe “nothing” or opposite. To help triangulate; red cars sell faster than white cars. However, today silver or grey cars sell in greater number. If I want to sell my “Mustang” fast and need to paint it, what color should I? Odds favor red. Not a fact and may not work out. But red is known to sell faster than other colors. This excludes other things like market saturation and buyer interest. Okay?

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green Please define “accident”. I mean, is it an accident that an instructor with 35 years experience teaching wood shop and use of power tools cuts off all the fingers on one hand during a class and while explaining Radial Arm safety? Insurance pays out based on what is called in our society “an accident” as no one reasonable would do this to themselves. However, in reality safety was negated and the “accident” occurred. So, please define what you accept as meaning accident. I will argue that “accident” is an insurance term or something and that in reality there is always a cause and in the case where it is a human causing it accident is more an issue of liability or not. Again, to triangulate, God caused no accidents. What is is because He said so. Length of a part of the body is on purpose with a purpose. Even if we don’t know at this time. Etc

Chris Green
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And where did the creator come from?…. what are the odds of your creator just appearing by chance?… if you have nothing and a billion years what are the odds of your creator being created?…… I think the nut and bolt are more likely to screw together than a magical all powerful deity appear

Chris Green
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And sorry I used the word accident when I meant random chance

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green I like the questions you ask Chris. I can’t provide you everything in terms of answers. I don’t know everything. But I do know the most important things. Such as, “Him”. And even more important, He knows me. I would like to continue to focus on things in our world which is what Jesus created and view things from the perspective of the odds or chance. However, maybe that doesn’t interest you as you don’t see the value in it. I wish you would. Nevertheless, Chris Green no one can say the right thing to the wrong person. Person not willing or agreeing or ready and so on. As well, to the right person you can’t say the wrong thing. This means that I could argue and argue with you or someone else and likely just do more harm than good. For example, I have talked JW’s out of the “club” twice just to have them go back and get indoctrinated back into the JW’s. Took about four hours each time and in the end proved of no value. As an Atheist you have a mindset like all of do. Until you agree with yourself to change no change will come and none will last. I offer myself as an example of change. 2 packs a day. I quit because I wanted to and have never looked back.… Read more »

Chris Green
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And don’t insurance companies refuse to pay out if they decide it’s “an act of God?”…… so they think god causes accidents…….

Chris Green
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Chris Green
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Ok Bob Claxton I’m enjoying talking to you too….we can continue later if you want

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green Excellent question Chris. By the way, markets are flying, making money today. So, yes “act of god”. So true and am I ever glad you brought this up. The question that needs to be addressed is “act of which god”? Now Chris, I am not trying to be smart of a prick to you. But, I will tell you in advance, you are going where I want you to. Sincerely, do not go further if you are going to be disturbed. For me this is fun. Okay? Now, I have given you the “secrets” or keys already. I hope you have read all that I posted in the last hour. I will wait for your reply to THIS post. Bob.

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green For sure Chris. I wouldn’t mind breaking off right now as well. All the best.

Doreen Fenwick
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Chris you would be so funny?? If you werent so sad x.

Doreen Fenwick
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Nothing, personally, but I read all things about these people.I also get it from the horses mouth so to speak by fellow Jehovah Witnesses who are actually Scientists in these fields dealing with the human body.So Atheist unless you have the expertise of being a Scientist on these subjects dont offload on me, and waste your time xx.

Doreen Fenwick
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Which ever way you describe this Chris these objects were made by someone.Its like when building a Ship a Plane a House even furniture, their has to be a plan, a blueprint.All the parts are’nt put in a large Cylinder and swirled around at speed an come out correctly built in each object.Ridiculous of course. So it is with God’s Creations they had plans blue prints Grand Designs all the things Evolution has’nt Aparently.And Atheists in their futile denial havent either x.

Chris Green
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Bob Claxton
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Chris Green Good Morning Chris. Thanks for the meme. Very good and I thank you for this reminder. I just spent some time in study and thought on the matter. I have well over five pages at pt 11 font but would be too much to drop on you. Instead, I would reply to the meme and the question I feel you are asking. I take it to say “how can anyone justify or rectify the “Judgement of God” with the “love of God”. Here is a link that is helpful for many questions: https://www.gotquestions.org/ I find this link quick and easy to get a solid opinion on many Bible based questions and issues. However, as short and simple as I can express the answer can be learned from learning the Names of Christ in the Bible and the Titles given Him. Particular to this meme would be the title of “Judge”. Specific application to the verses in Luke and other places as well Luke 19:26-27 are speaking of Judgement that would come on the or many of the Jewish people that would eventually reject Jesus the Christ as their Messiah. In a broader interpretation it could be applied to all mankind that rejects Jesus as Lord and Savior. This is really just scratching the surface in both reply and answer to what I feel is a question you are… Read more »

John Brain
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Bob Claxton, you said:

“The idea that things can be complex and there be no design, no designer goes against logic. It also goes against the “odds”.

Well, if something like a complex living god did not need a designer or creator to exist, then lesser things – in comparative complexity – would not have needed to be designed or created either – to also exist – this is simple logic. You cannot take any element out of your theoretical argument and maintain that your results are complete.

Either include god in your all encompassing argument (god being a living complex being) or consider your argument to be a failure. Nothing that is said to exist and exhibits your criteria can be left out of your theory, because if you do your argument falls flat on its face as unsupportable.

Bob Claxton
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Member

John Brain Good Morning, Good Day John Brain: Very interesting. I totally see what you mean. It could be correct. However it ignores a known factor. God, Almighty God, the I Am of the Bible spoke. Within What He has spoken He has given testimony that He is eternal. Without getting into those places this has been said as you can research that yourself, what the real issue is “credibility”. Can someone, anyone believe and accept what He has said? Bible believing Christian place a high level of credibility on the Word of God and accept things as fact. Sometime even to the point of reading things into the text that are not there. That is neither here nor there with respect to the post you provided. Cheers

Chris Green
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Is anyone still on this thread?

Bob Claxton
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Hello Chris; I say the post and dropped in. Will be around for a short while if you are. Cheers

Chris Green
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Sorry have had Facebook problems……if anyone is still here …. many Christians say “nothing comes from nothing” regarding the universe….and they say ” life couldn’t have started without an intelligent designer”…. because something as complex as life needs a god…..but if these things are true….then god must have had a designer…he couldn’t have “come from nothing”… and complex things need a designer….so who created god?… it’s a fallacy called special pleading…everything has to follow these rules…except god…..

Bob Claxton
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Chris Green Hello Chris. Have to go but say the post my email. Hey, I bet you have watched “Men In Black” right? LOL

Steve Shilling
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What to do when the God of Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob comes and taps you on the shoulder and says”Hi”…

Doreen Fenwick
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Exactly Steve Shillingxx.

Doreen Fenwick
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The thing is Atheist?? The answer to that question is Jehovah taps us on the shoulder so to speak daily through the Bible.This is why he encourages us to read it daily.xx.

Steve Shilling
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What if there was no “bible’?,as in Abram’s day,how did he hear ?What of Moses?What of Jacob?No”bible”!How they all hear?

Steve Shilling
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Not interested in religion,I’m interested in getting to know the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob…

Doreen Fenwick
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Foolish then because Jehovah God has always been same God, FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION AND STILL IS SAME GOD???

Steve Shilling
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I don’t understand your answer,why foolish,there was no “bible” in their day,so how did God communicate…???

Doreen Fenwick
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Atheist?? We all go to Hell. HELL IS JUST ANOTHER NAME FOR GRAVE SAME AS HADES, SHEOL. ITS JUST A GRAVE. IT AMUSES ME YOU AND OTHERS CRITICISE THE BIBLE, YET IM ALWAYS AWARE HOW LITTLE YOU ACTUALLY KNOW OR UNDERSTAND IT.SO IM CONTINUALLY SURPRISED HOW YOU CAN DISMISS WHAT YOU DONT ACTUALLY KNOW ??X

Doreen Fenwick
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Ps SPEND ATTORNEY??? EXPLAIN.xx.

Doreen Fenwick
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Also Atheist I wouldnt call over 8, million of us, a Sect also who are increasing daily.Also shows MUSLIMS they wont take over the whole World xx.

John Termaten
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Doreen Fenwick Why would you have to read the bible if you living according to your god’s laws? Isn’t that a bit creepy to kiss his ass every day? Or do you need to be told over and over? How can you believe without evidence? I guess that is faith in the unknown. An other reason we do not understand the bible is because of all the crime done in it. The contradiction, and the plain nonsense. You are also wrong in your assessment that Christianity is growing. It is not, atheism is growing.

John Brain
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If Jehovah taps me on my shoulder and says “go out and kill witches when you find them, as I told you to do in the bible” I will say, “Hey! I think someone has spiked my drink with a powerful hallucinogenic”.

One must not presuppose the existence of supernatural entities that have not been proven to exist – whether they are gods, ghosts or genies.

Steve Shilling
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Interesting that you put words in my mouth that I never spoke…

Doreen Fenwick
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The Atheist?? God doesnt create us Skeptical he gives us reason to work things out for ourselves. As you’ve noticed He has put thousands of references around for us find and decipher.He doesnt ask us to take him on spec”, he tell us to seek and and you will find me* God says the same about each person “Beloved ones do not believe every inspired expression, but test each expression to see if it originates with God.Because many false prophets have gone forth into the World. They originate with the World, and that is why they speak what proceeds from the world and the world listens to them”,xx 1 John 4; 1 & 5.

Doreen Fenwick
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Steve Shilling, They were extremely lucky they had Jehovah speaking to them through his prophets,, infact all these youve mentioned and more. I believe Moses made a start on writing the Bible then many more followed xx.

Doreen Fenwick
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WellJohn Termate?? Atheism tends to creep me out, but I dont usually broadcast it.Each person at the end of the day, even Atheists believe and have faith in their choice. Take the air we all breathe, or carbon dioxide, we cant see it but we know its there, same with wind, we feel its affect on us and trees etc; but we cant actually see it.Its the same with God, Satan, and the Demons and even Angels, because we cant see them, doesnt prove they are not there. Also humans who very foolishly try to Judge Jehovah God are setting themselves in Opposition to him are on a very slippery slope.I believe its one of the Commandments ” Dont take the Lord Gods name in a vain way. SO GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL ON JUDGEMENT DAY. PLEASE GOD HAVE MERCY ON THEIR SOULS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.I ask this Jehovah, through your beloved Son and our Saviour Jesus Christ AMEN XX.

Doreen Fenwick
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John Brain?? Are you forgetting the MEDIEVAL AGES The ones rounding up whomever they deemed to be Witches, whether or not they were.Have you bothered to find out the horrific stuff they did to them before they let them die.AND THESE TORMENTORS WERE ALLEGED HUMANS.THERE IS NOT A MORE CRUEL AND HATEFUL BEING THAN UNGODLY HUMANS. So dont any of you dare to judge Your God.You can all blaspheme and rudicule choose not believe he exists till your blue in the face. *For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two edged sword that pierces even to the deviding of the soul and spirit, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. There is not a creation that is not manifest to him, all things are naked to his sight and openly exposed to his eyes. Whom!! We have ab accounting”. Hebrews 4: 12-13. So think on xx.

Doreen Fenwick
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Ps An not Abxx.

Chris Jarvis
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If God were to tap me on the shoulder he would run and hide in Hell when I’d finished with him.

Kevin Peter Alexander
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When I did the laundry I put two of each sock in but only one of socks of one pair came out. Proof that gremlins exist.

Bob Claxton
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It would do a persons wardrobe a huge benefit if you put nothing in the washer and a suit, jeans, pairs of socks, shirts and so on all came out. Otherwise it is just life in the wash cycle.

David Andrew White
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Strictly speaking, IC/ID is testable. That is, one has to test all alternatives to irreducible complexity (IC) and show none work. But that would be a long process of elimination. And unfortunately, examples of mal-design must not be ignored. Because such things suggest sub-intelligent design. These include: vestigial structures; parasitic transposons; junk DNA; defunct viral DNA in genomes; deleterious mutations; suboptimal biochemical pathways; extinctions; – – – -. These things strongly suggest that most aspects of biotic nature are not designed as an engineer would design things. And this comes from someone open to theism, moi. I am just honestly pointing out some flaws in IC/ID.

Sed Adler
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The Humanist Codex Don’t forget that in the womb we have gills, our bodies are covered in hair, and we have tails. Hmmm.

Sed Adler
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I am not open to theism at all, to me it is nothing more than a band aid for those that cannot handle death, ultimate death.

David Andrew White
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Ed Sadler The veracity of biotic evolution is as clear and straightforward as any logical induction from observation can possibly be.

Chris Jarvis
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Not one example of purported irreducible complexity has proved to be so.

Doreen Fenwick
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Chris,? Just a lot of big words no inspiration x.

Doreen Fenwick
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Sorry, dont agree. Ideas and there expression of should be kept pure and simple every time. Big presumptious words are only confusing and maks people lose interest in the subject x.

Chris Jarvis
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As Einstein once said “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” in this case I have used exactly the right words to convey my meaning. In this case the “Big presumptious words” (isn’t presumptuous a ‘big’ word?) are totally fit for purpose. In fact you have used a word bigger than any I used! lol

Dustin Clark
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I, for one, an getting sick of this weird reverse-elitism where everyone assumes that those of us who enjoy using our language skills are being pretentious.

Chris Jarvis
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What a splendiferous thought Dustin!

Sed Adler
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Doreen Fenwick Doreen, with all due respect, I suggest you read some layman’s books on evolution by Jerry Coyne “Why Evolution Is True” or “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins. That ought to clear up any misconceptions you are having about evolution.

Chris Jarvis
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Totally agree with this “Jerry Coyne “Why Evolution Is True” an excellent book for anybody who wants to learn what evolution actually is all about.

Nev Richards
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God did it anyway. There’s no way of accounting fog design and energy without Him.

Larry Delyea
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wrong nev

Doreen Fenwick
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Larry D?? You seem very sure, but with no reasons why x.

Nev Richards
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I.ve read and seen lots of reasons by high level scientific people who often have believed evolution until they looked outside the close circuit theory as I did long time ago. This is just a small sample of evidence that cannot just be dismissed by biased opinions. Information from UNLOCKING THE MYSTERY OF LIFE DVD Expresses the scientific views of: Dr Dean H Kenyon Evolutionary Biologist, one of Leading Chemical Evolutionists Dr Michael J Behe Biochemist Dr Steven C Meyer, philosopher of Science Professor Phillip E Johnson Dr Paul A Nelson Professor of biology William Dembski, mathematician Baylon Uni., Scott Minniah, Molecular Biologist, Uni of Idaho and others who are specialists in various fields In 1969 Dr Dean Kenyon published , “Biochemical Predestination”. It was a best selling book influencing many scientists. It claimed the different complex protiens essential for life had self assembled. (30,000. of them) with the 20 different animo acids to begin life. But 5 years later he began to doubt his own theory. How could first protiens assemble without instructions?(a recipe) Where did the genetic assembly instructions come from? The complex assembly chain is classified to A, C, G, T each standing for complex arrangements. By the end of the 70’s he realised animo acids do not have the ability to organise themselves into any orderly sequence and that there was a need for genetic information… Read more »

Doreen Fenwick
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Nev Richards thanks, its gratifying to have someone on same wavelength as me xx.

Nev Richards
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Doreen Fenwick thanks too, haven’t had anyone agree with me on this site yet

John Brain
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If a living god did not need to be designed or created then lesser things – in comparison – would not have needed to be designed or created either. Unless “every” existent thing is put up the same scrutiny in a universal explanation theory – the theory cannot be said to be complete.

If a god is a living thing then its existence must be subject to open examination – like any other living entity. If anything is exempt from this examination, the results will be unreliable, inadequate and uncertain, and can never be called accurate.

Paul Finlow-Bates
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The speed-trap camera is inadmissible evidence that I was speeding. The car is clearly stationary in the picture.